Uniform Loot Table for Gauntlet Artifacts

Discussion in 'Suggestions & Ideas' started by Slaan, May 16, 2021.

  1. Slaan

    Slaan New Member



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    Uniform Loot Table for Gauntlet Artifacts

    - Written And Suggested By Komusou​


    Summary:

    The artifact award system in Gauntlet went through a major revision in Publish 96, where a 'condensed' list of low award probability artifacts was created to yield a higher probability of getting artifacts that were called 'more desireable', like Ornament of the Magician and Hat of the Magi.
    (source: https://uo.com/wiki/ultima-online-wiki/items/artifact-collections/artifacts-doom-gauntlet see artifacts labeled as 'equal' versus 'condensed')

    This resulted in some artifacts, for example the Armor of Fortune and Hunter's Headdress, to end up with a significantly lower chance of being awarded, actually being 25 times more unlikely to be awarded than non-condensed artifacts.
    While this might have made sense in OSI servers where there were countless artifacts of each type in each shard's economy (especially cursed versions that were frequently awarded in events), the impact of this system in UOAlive, where the economy is relatively fresh and smaller, is that a player
    trying to get a specific artifact from the condensed table, for example an AoF, will get 375 artifacts (on average) before being awarded an AoF. In expectation, the player will get 25 copies of each artifact from the regular table (HotM, SotM, Ornie, Midnights, etc) before getting the
    AoF that he's aiming for. The end result is that some artifacts might have never been awarded and won't be anytime soon. Since most of the artifacts in the condensed table are not considered strong, this won't be trivializing the process of gearing up characters, but actually diversifying the
    artifacts that are awarded in Gauntlet and giving a reasonable chance of getting desired ones that are currently in the condensed table.



    Specifics:

    Gauntlet's system currently works as follows: it has an artifact table defined in Scripts/Services/PointsSystems/GauntletPoints.cs, given by

    private static readonly Type[][] m_RewardTable = new Type[][]
    {
    new Type[] { typeof(HatOfTheMagi) }, new Type[] { typeof(StaffOfTheMagi) }, new Type[] { typeof(OrnamentOfTheMagician) },
    new Type[] { typeof(ShadowDancerLeggings) }, new Type[] {typeof(RingOfTheElements) }, new Type[] { typeof(GauntletsOfNobility) },
    new Type[] { typeof(LeggingsOfBane) }, new Type[] { typeof(MidnightBracers) }, new Type[] { typeof(Glenda) },
    new Type[] { typeof(BowOfTheInfiniteSwarm) }, new Type[] { typeof(TheDeceiver) }, new Type[] { typeof(TheScholarsHalo) },
    new Type[] { typeof(DoomRecipeScroll) },
    new Type[]
    {
    typeof(LegacyOfTheDreadLord), typeof(TheTaskmaster),
    typeof(ArmorOfFortune), typeof(HelmOfInsight),
    typeof(HolyKnightsBreastplate), typeof(JackalsCollar),
    typeof(OrnateCrownOfTheHarrower), typeof(TheDragonSlayer),
    typeof(TunicOfFire), typeof(VoiceOfTheFallenKing),
    typeof(RingOfTheVile), typeof(BraceletOfHealth),
    typeof(Aegis), typeof(ArcaneShield),
    typeof(BladeOfInsanity), typeof(BoneCrusher),
    typeof(Frostbringer), typeof(SerpentsFang),
    typeof(TheBeserkersMaul), typeof(TheDryadBow),
    typeof(HuntersHeaddress), typeof(SpiritOfTheTotem),
    typeof(AxeOfTheHeavens), typeof(BreathOfTheDead),
    typeof(DivineCountenance)
    }
    };

    It has a total of 14 entries, where the last entry is itself a list of 25 artifacts (the so-called 'condensed', 'collapsed', or 'legacy' table). All other 13 entries are actual artifacts (Hat of the Magi, Staff of the Magi, etc).

    When a player is awarded an artifact, the system rolls a 15-sided die.
    For outcomes between 1 and 13, the player receives an artifact of type given by the corresponding entry of m_RewardTable, for example an outcome of 2 yields a Staff of the Magi.
    For an outcome of 15, the player receives a randomly-generated legendary-tier artifact item.
    Finally, for an outcome of 14, which corresponds to the condensed table, the system then rolls a 25-sided die and awards the player with the corresponding artifact of the collapsed table. For example, an outcome of 14 (which hits the collapsed table) followed by an outcome of 2 will award a Taskmaster.

    In summary, each artifact outside the collapsed table has a 1/15 probability of being awarded, while each artifact in the collapsed table has a 1/15 * 1/25 = 1/375 chance of being awarded (the system has to first hit the collapsed table and then hit the correct artifact out of the 25 in the table).

    Prior to Pub 96 all artifacts had equal probability of being awarded, which arguably makes more sense for a server that, unlike OSI, does not have a huge backlog of every single Gauntlet artifact. Having an uniform table, where artifacts have equal probability, would diversify the awards that players receive and
    make collecting artifacts enjoyable, and would also give more options in terms of gearing to new players: for example, with Jackal's Collar ridiculously low award chance, most dexxers end up with the Gladiator's Collar being the only good option for a neck piece. Without SotT and HH, most players have no option
    but to farm glasses (Prismatic or Mace, both giving HLD and hence players have little flexibity on what stats to get for the head piece).

    An uniform award table can be implemented by replacing the original definition of m_RewardTable (above) by

    private static readonly Type[][] m_RewardTable = new Type[][]
    {
    new Type[] { typeof(HatOfTheMagi) }, new Type[] { typeof(StaffOfTheMagi) }, new Type[] { typeof(OrnamentOfTheMagician) },
    new Type[] { typeof(ShadowDancerLeggings) }, new Type[] {typeof(RingOfTheElements) }, new Type[] { typeof(GauntletsOfNobility) },
    new Type[] { typeof(LeggingsOfBane) }, new Type[] { typeof(MidnightBracers) }, new Type[] { typeof(Glenda) },
    new Type[] { typeof(BowOfTheInfiniteSwarm) }, new Type[] { typeof(TheDeceiver) }, new Type[] { typeof(TheScholarsHalo) },
    new Type[] { typeof(LegacyOfTheDreadLord) }, new Type[] { typeof(TheTaskmaster) }, new Type[] { typeof(ArmorOfFortune) },
    new Type[] { typeof(HelmOfInsight) }, new Type[] { typeof(HolyKnightsBreastplate) }, new Type[] { typeof(JackalsCollar) },
    new Type[] { typeof(OrnateCrownOfTheHarrower) }, new Type[] { typeof(TheDragonSlayer) }, new Type[] { typeof(TunicOfFire) },
    new Type[] { typeof(VoiceOfTheFallenKing) }, new Type[] { typeof(RingOfTheVile) }, new Type[] { typeof(BraceletOfHealth) },
    new Type[] { typeof(Aegis) }, new Type[] { typeof(ArcaneShield) }, new Type[] { typeof(BladeOfInsanity) },
    new Type[] { typeof(BoneCrusher) }, new Type[] { typeof(Frostbringer) }, new Type[] { typeof(SerpentsFang) },
    new Type[] { typeof(TheBeserkersMaul) }, new Type[] { typeof(TheDryadBow) }, new Type[] { typeof(HuntersHeaddress) },
    new Type[] { typeof(SpiritOfTheTotem) }, new Type[] { typeof(AxeOfTheHeavens) }, new Type[] { typeof(BreathOfTheDead) },
    new Type[] { typeof(DivineCountenance) }, new Type[] { typeof(DoomRecipeScroll) }

    };

    In this case, every artifact will have an equal 1/39 chance of being awarded (38 total entries plus the chance to get a randomly-generated legendary-tier artifact item).
     
  2. tr1age

    tr1age Administrator Staff Member



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    I am going to quote JC

    We all need to step back for a second and remember how to make a suggestion:

    I am benching this topic for the time being as we have been quick to throw suggestions without fully thinking them through as of late. And skipping the steps.

    I appreciate people submitting code and possible adjustments to code, but this is the final process to a thought or a suggestion if the UOAlive staff cannot handle it, not the first.
     
  3. tr1age

    tr1age Administrator Staff Member



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    I am re-opening this to discussion as it seems many people have strong opinions, please remember this is a suggestions forum topic so keep it relevant. But know it may not be changed as it IS working right now.

    Also make sure to keep it civil please.
     
  4. Toruk

    Toruk New Member



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    I go with JC too, UO always try to make some balance, maybe this will change, and sometimes not everybody will like.
     
  5. Zara

    Zara New Member



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    From Komusou,

    To answer your question: of the 17 possible results from the equal table, I personally, would use 11 to 12 of them. (This is not including wanting multiple copies of some of those artifacts for use with several different characters.)

    I'm not here, though, to argue over my individual opinion or your individual opinion, Komusou. :)

    Generally speaking (and yes there are exceptions, of course) the majority of players in today's modern UO would state that the condensed table is filled with mostly outdated artifacts. The Ring of Vile, the totem and more had their heyday in the mid 2000s, but we have had significant power creep in that time. And as I said earlier, if people believe they need something from that condensed table, there could be discussion to add it to the equal table. And perhaps (as is often suggested in posts elsewhere) with additional changes to the item to make it more modern.

    Also, generally speaking, people usually hunt Shadowguard and Doom for the specific desirable items they seek versus getting a collection. Much more often than not, they are there to get that Scholar's Halo to complete their suit versus being there to get a bracelet of health that's going straight into some chest or display case.

    Now what I can't speak for (and neither can you) is the population of UOAlive. I can say that the players I have gone to Doom with most times were there for a specific useful artifact they intend to use versus people just wanting to collect one of every item just for collecting purposes only. But that doesn't speak for everyone just like your opinion can't speak for more than you and your group who are there primarily just to collect items they have deemed useless but want to have anyway.

    Also it doesn't have to be one approach only. For myself, when I am at Doom, I'm there for the many useful items I still need and want to collect to actively use for various characters. Once and if I complete that, I'd still do Doom for the social experience (when with friends), just the fun of it, and yes, at that point (after getting all the stuff I actually needed) collecting other artifacts just to have it.

    As an aside to anyone reading, if you want to collect items (and who doesn't if you're a UO player), don't forget Paragon artifacts too. They are also mostly useless but a must for a collector who just wants to have them. The collection game is strong in UO (and that's a good thing) with opportunities to keep the avid collector busy for many, many years to come. :)

    Regarding, "I did gauntlet less than 5 times in this shard and I have around 10 shadow dancers, over 10 glendas, 6 or 7 ornaments, and I honestly don't see the fun in that." You didn't state how recipes for Cuffs of the Archmage you received? How many Rings of the Elements? How many recipes for Gloves of the Feudal Grip and many others (all on the equal table). From my own experience and that of others I talked with, some items drop in much lower proportion compared to others. I have own stack of Glendas. Now I don't know if it's code or, more likely, just bad rng that I have so many Glendas but not a single Ring of The Elements. And while you have 10 shadow dancers, I have a grand total of 0 shadow dancers. But expanding the list to include all Doom artifacts to drop equally means the chances for a particular recipe (or other item on the equal table) someone really wants and needs for their suit or build to be even more remote.

    Anyway, here is another approach...a compromise :)

    tr1age mentioned the possibility of a trade in vendor. That can give both camps what they want.

    Personally, I really love the Blackthorn system where we get "bland" non-named artifacts and can turn them in as points for the specific item we want. It's a very popular system as evidenced by all the "Treasures of... events, past and current".

    Another option could be trading in three or so regular artifacts (like 3 of your glendas or shadow dancers) to get your choice of another Doom artifact but as a Brittle version.

    In fact, personally, I'd love to see a Blackthorn or other trade in like system like the above for Shadowguard as well. Trade in systems give people a choice where we can all be happy :)
     
    #5 Zara,
  6. Komusou

    Komusou New Member



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    What would these 11-12 be? By the way there are only 12 actual artifacts with equally high probability (1/15) of being awarded unless you count the 4 recipes as being individually part of the equal table even though they are 4x more unlikely to be awarded -- in which case you get 16 total.

    The following artifacts have 1/15 chance of being awarded:

    01 - Hat Of The Magi
    02 - Staff Of The Magi
    03 - Ornament Of The Magician
    04 - Shadow Dancer Leggings
    05 - Ring Of The Elements
    06 - Gauntlets Of Nobility
    07 - Leggings Of Bane
    08 - Midnight Bracers
    09 - Glenda
    10 - Bow Of The Infinite Swarm
    11 - The Deceiver
    12 - The Scholars Halo

    The following recipes have 1/60 chance:

    13 - Britches of Warding
    14 - Gloves of Feudal Grip
    15 - Cuffs of the Archmage
    16 - Bracelet of Primal Consumption

    And the following have 1/375 chance:

    17 - Legacy Of The Dread Lord
    18 - The Taskmaster
    19 - Armor Of Fortune
    20 - Helm Of Insight
    21 - Holy Knights Breastplate
    22 - Jackals Collar
    23 - Ornate Crown Of The Harrower
    24 - The Dragon Slayer
    25 - Tunic Of Fire
    26 - Voice Of The Fallen King
    27 - Ring Of The Vile
    28 - Bracelet Of Health
    29 - Aegis
    30 - Arcane Shield
    31 - Blade Of Insanity
    32 - Bone Crusher
    33 - Frostbringer
    34 - Serpents Fang
    35 - The Beserkers Maul
    36 - The Dryad Bow
    37 - Hunters Headdress
    38 - Spirit Of The Totem
    39 - Axe Of The Heavens
    40 - Breath Of The Dead
    41 - Divine Countenance

    The remaining 1/15 chance comes from the randomly-generated minor intensity item.

    The only artifact from the 1/15 table that is arguably 'best in slot' is the Scholar's Halo. Nobility and Midnight are also optimal picks if you're using them to craft the Grips and Cuffs, respectively -- which you can literally just ask on discord for someone to craft them for you. This gives us a total of 3 'desirable' artifacts out of the 12 in the 1/15 table, so I'm quite curious to know what the other 9 you would wear on your character. The ornament and britches are not bad (britches could be optimal if we had ranger's cloak, vvv cc, and/or morphius, which afaik is not the case), so we might end up with 5 out of 12 (or 13 if you collapse the 4 recipes that you absolutely do no need to farm into a 1/15 entry).

    The artifacts in the collapsed table are obviously less valuable, especially since everybody runs axe sampires due to the 30% flat damage modifier from lumberjacking not counting towards the skill cap, hence I don't think anyone runs an ABC to want a HHs and jackal's (which could both be best in slot depending on the gear). AoF is optimal for luck suits and overall just convenient for casters and I'd guess everyone would be happy if it had a higher drop chance.

    While we definitively disagree on how many artifacts each of us would wear from each table, hopefully we can somewhat agree that only Scholar's, Grips, Cuffs, HHs, Jackal's and AoF are optimal for --some-- standard gear template (mage / dex / dex / abc / abc / luck), which gives us 3 from the 1/15 table and 3 from the 1/375 table.

    Even if you go for Britches being optimal and Jackal's not, we still end up with a huge disparity in terms of drop chances: I'm not sure if you guys stopped to consider the numbers, but 1/375 chance to get AoF means that, statistically, you'll get TWENTY-FIVE COPIES of EACH artifact in the 1/15 table before being awarded an AoF -- this means 25 ornies, 25 scholars, 25 glendas, 25 shadow dancers and so on. You'll also get around 6 copies of each of the four recipes. If two players wanted to get an AoF, they would, in expectation, get more artifacts than necessary to distribute one copy of each 1/15 to every single player that is online in the server right now, and I fail to see how that's better than having a flat 1/39 chance to get any specific artifacts, be it a Scholar's or an AoF.

    I'd prefer to talk numbers instead of individual opinions. If you'd like to make an argument for some artifacts requiring, in expectation, 375 drops (or around 13000 dark father kills without a luck set) to drop while others requiring only 15 (540 dark fathers), then I'd happy to hear it. I'd be happy to be convinced that ornies are BiS even though they don't have SDI -- that'd make up gearing my mage much easier.

    If you're running gauntlet with 3-4 people (enough to spawn 2 bosses per room) and an average luck suit, then 30 runs suffice to, in expectation, get whichever artifact a player might want from the 1/15 table, including a Scholar's or whatever else. That number would increase to 78 with an uniform table, and I honestly don't think this is a lot for a player to get a best-in-slot artifact.



    The artifact from the 1/15 table that I have the least copies of is the leggings of bane with only 2 copies. I have gotten around 5 HotMs (gave 2-3 away to random players and still have 2 sitting in my house), 4 elements, 5 midnight bracers, 3 rings, and so on. As for recipes, me and the 2 guildies who I run gauntlet with have gotten all four recipes, including 3-4 cuffs and bracelets. I have gotten around 3 recipes total but I just hand them to the guildie that has a crafter as soon as it drops in gauntlet. I don't think it makes sense to expect every player to have a copy of each of the four recipes since you can literally just ask on discord for someone to craft it for you.

    Yeah, if you didn't get any shadow dancers by now just imagine if its drop chance were 25 times smaller like it is for AoF / HH / Jackal's. Geometric distributions are heavy-tailed and even though the numbers are already bad in terms of expectation (13000 boss kills to get an AoF?), you'd be scared if you actually computed how many kills you need to get 90% chance of getting an AoF: the variance of geometric distributions grows quadratically with the inverse probability, meaning that if an artifact is 25 times less likely to drop than the other, the actual effect in terms of bounding number of trials is a scaling of 25^2 = 625. Once you have done 625 times more gauntlet runs than you already did, you'll be in the same position to be surprised that you never got an AoF.

    See, I'm not against artifacts from the condensed table having lower probability, I'm against the odds being 25 times smaller. I'd be happy with --some-- balancing, for example giving 1/2 chance to hit the collapsed table instead of 1/15 (which would make equal arties have 1/30 chance and collapsed ones 1/50). 1/375 chance is just disgustingly low considering you need to kill multiple bosses to even get a drop.


    I'm all for a system where we can trade artifacts, but would still be happy with some balancing in terms of chance to hit the collapsed table.

    Another option would be to simply give the player the option to choose between the two drop systems, for example by adding an item (like a blessed 'Gauntlet Collector's scroll' or whatever) that makes players carrying it have uniform rolls. This is actually very simple to add in terms of code and wouldn't negatively impact anyone.
     
  7. Zara

    Zara New Member



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    I could write a lengthy post detailing each of the 11-12 artifacts and in what ways I would value them and use them, but I find that derailing from the topic at hand. Why? Because as stated, that's my personal opinion for myself just as you stated previously that for you all Doom artifacts are useless except for Nobility. Your opinion does not represent all players, just yourself, and you're entitled to feel that nobility is the only useful artifact in all of Doom. Similarly, my opinion and how I would use doom artifacts puts value on 11-12 artifacts and my opinion is my own and does not represent all players. This thread isn't about exploring our own personal opinions which are sure to differ from others. If you wish to explore the "why's" of this further, you can reach out to me in DM and we can discuss opinions there as separate, friendly discussion. :)

    The point I was raising, to quote you,
    and hence to have the items that are more valuable in a separate table and dropping more often. And that if there are indeed items that players feel have more value, to bring it up in discussion in case it can be moved to the equal table.

    There are 17 different items in the equal table (as opposed to the condensed table) and that is counting the recipes individually as well as the random "prized' artifact whose intensity minimum is "Lesser Artifact".

    As before, this is going into opinions and derailing and we can argue with it going nowhere. As a quick example, AoF as long been deemed to be not the best choice in full luck suits. You're talking about 200 luck versus 190 so yes, technically you can get a whole "10" extra luck. However, modern day luck suits (where 10 luck at max numbers is insignificant) revolve around having fully functional and capable suits (except in SDI though compromises are possible there too) while also obtaining near max luck. AoF makes it harder reaching overcapped resists, max lmc, and more. It's LRC is high but not at all needed in a carefully crafted luck suit. The insignificant 10 extra luck it offers does not outweigh the far superior imbued chest piece you can make otherwise.

    There you go and I don't think we're going to get anywhere having paragraphs like the above for every single artifact especially when we're simply not going to agree on a number of areas. Hence, why I'm not wasting valuable time and thread space on that. The AoF was just an example showing it's not "obvious."

    No, we don't agree. I find the Jackal and AoF dated choices with far better "optimal" choices just as surely you will disagree with some of my choices.

    Without a doubt and with no argument, I fully concur that items on the condensed table -- the table you referred to as "obviously less valuable" drop far less than on the equal table -- which was the point of OSI's decision with the publish.

    The problem here is you see all artifacts except nobility as useless to yourself (though you subjectively increase that number slightly for others) and hence are doing the gauntlet just so you can have items to keep in a chest or as display. Perhaps you also hunt paragons for their artifacts for the same reason along with Tokuno Minors (except for the mempo). And that's all good and part of UO. Yet, many others play Doom to get the items they need for their suits that drop from the equal table and not to be just locked away in storage. And I believe that is more important.

    Think of it like this. Your armor suit to be complete for your build requires the nobility gloves -- the only useful item to you in all of Doom. Now let's make a new doom drop table with that the nobility gloves only. Then add 250 dyes (new and old) to the table. Now let's add 100 paintings (new and old). Now let's add another 100 crystal snowglobes with different text. And oh, to be considerate, we'll add Halo. Is it fair that all of these items have an equal chance of being dropped. It's 1/452 if we say yes. My opinion (and it's just that, my opinion, not a declaration that I'm right) is that no, you should have more than a 1/452 chance of getting your nobility and that your mage friend should have more than 1/452 chance of getting the Halo. But to give you higher odds would be to lower the chances far worse for the player who wants to complete their painting or snowglobe collection. So if it's a one way or the other only, I'd choose equipment that's useful and needed first, then the rest. However, I'd encourage option C. -- an option where both sides can get what they want.

    Same principle -- different numbers.

    So how many players get to have a recipe? One? Five? Ten? Twenty? Who decides? And players who want to have a complete collection of all the artifacts in the condensed table is fine but not the player who wants a complete collection of every recipe? I also believe you are overestimating the number of players that have the recipe for Cuffs and who are then willing to freely offer their services.


    This is an important distinction from the original uniform table of giving every Doom arti an equal chance of being dropped. Of course finding a number both sides would be happy is another matter as any adjustment that improves odds on the condensed table will worsen the odds for the equal table.

    And that, my friend, is where I think our focus should be. :) Forget everything else above.

    Option C. It doesn't have to be one or the other. And I propose that's where we head the discussion. That path is a fruitful path where all sides can be happy. So I propose we simply do not continue all the previous parts because really it's not going anywhere unless we get some polls and a lot more people participating so it's just not a couple of people's opinions. OSI made the change and most people are happy with the change of having the more desirable items being easier to obtain. I think that would be reflected here too if informed people were adding their voices. But I could easily be wrong and they might all say, "Komusou is right! We want that Blade of Insanity already!!!" ;) And it's whatever everyone wants, that's what matters, not what you want or what I want.

    So again I propose we just focus on option C where everyone can win and get what they want. Ideas like the trade in vendor. With that in mind, I think it would be great if we had a vendor who could give us different options. A trade of say 3 doom artifacts (of any kind -- equal or condensed) to get our choice of any one doom brittle/cursed artifact. Also an option where we could trade 10 doom artifacts for a "clean" doom artifact of our choice (not cursed or brittle).

    Furthermore, I'd love to see a system like that expanded for Shadowguard as well.

    This was also a thought I had too. Yet another idea is an item or something that makes players carrying it roll only on the condensed table.

    Of course whether anything happens with any of this will be based on tr1age. One thing in the meantime you could do is create a mini temporary trade in vendor using the discord trade channel. Example: I am hereby trading this beautiful, never-used, Blade of Insanity for the low price of 3 Rings of the Elements. I'll also accept 3 Bows of Infinite Spawn for the much rarer Blade of Insanity. (This is a valid trade offer by the way if you or others want to take me up on it.)
     
    #7 Zara,

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